Episode 7: Behind the Listings: The Truth About Therapist Directories

In this episode of Both Sides of the Couch, Kari pulls back the curtain on the business behind therapist directories, from her own experience leaving Psychology Today to uncovering what really happened with Therapy Den after its founder sold it.

She shares her firsthand story of how therapist listings became big business: pay-to-play exposure models, low compensation for writers, hidden ownership structures, and profit-first operations disguised as mental health advocacy. Kari connects these discoveries to a broader issue: the corporatization of mental health and how tech-driven “solutions” often hurt both therapists and clients.

Listeners will hear why so many people struggle to find a therapist, what really happens when you send a contact form through a directory, and how investors, rather than clinicians, are increasingly steering the mental health space.

But Kari also offers practical advice, from ethical alternatives to how clients can vet directories, find legitimate therapist websites, and ask the right questions before starting therapy.

✨ Takeaway: Mental health shouldn’t be a marketing industry. If you’re searching for care, you deserve transparency, integrity, and connection, not a sales funnel.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to both sides of the couch. I'm Carrie, a therapist who also happens to be a human navigating chronic illness, which means I see life from both sides. This is where I share honest stories, lessons, and little reminders that you don't have to have it all figured out to keep showing up. Let's get into today's episode. Therapist directories are supposed to help you find care, but what if they're part of the problem? Today's episode is one I wanted to do for a long time. Scroll, click, cross your fingers, and hope for chemistry if you even get an answer. But here's the thing, therapist directories are big business, and as someone who's been listed, paid the fees and eventually walked away, I've seen what goes on behind the scenes. So today we're gonna talk about it from both sides, from the therapist trying to get found to the person, desperately scrolling for help to the system that profits from both because finding therapy shouldn't feel like shopping for shoes online. It's too important for that. So I opened my private practice, I think in 2014, and the only directory that I had heard of or knew about how to get clients from was Psychology Today. So I joined, I think it was$29 a month at the time. I remember thinking it was weird because I had to pay some foreign fee through my bank. Because the company was registered outside of the us I didn't really think much about it then. But looking back later, I realized what was going on. But for the time it worked, I did get referrals from Psychology Today pretty much right away and pretty consistently until recent years. And that's because Psychology Today has the monopoly on the market of. SEO for searching for therapist. When you Google a therapist or finding therapy in wherever you live, that's gonna be the first website that pops up. Most people end up clicking on it and don't even realize, like they're not looking at the therapist's actual website that they're looking at a directory. But some people find the directory and then you can click through all these filters to find what you're looking for. So in 2020, during the pandemic, I started writing for another blog, the Gottman Institute. They reached out to me and asked if I'd be interested. I really liked it, so I was looking for more writing opportunities and I was like, oh, psychology Today, I, I list with them. I might as well check out their blog. So I wrote a pitch and they accepted it was a different setup than any other blog I'd written for, where normally you just submit your article in an email and then they do all the other stuff for you. You basically got like a page for your personal blog or your professional blog, I guess I should say, that you manage where you like uploaded the blog posts and you had to find your own. Pictures to add to that and then like it automatically added in like all the ads and formatted it to the webpage, but it was submitted to an editor first. They would review it and then they would click publish to make it live, and they would also edit it, which was common. I think everyone I write for edits to some degree, maybe they change my title to be a little catchier. They go through and like optimize it for SEO. Or they just kind of do regular editing. So when I was first writing for Psychology Today, it was pretty easy. The pay in my opinion, was not good. It was a couple dollars for like every thousand views or something like that. But there was no like guarantee that you would get any views. So you could, I guess. Market your own blog through social media and stuff, or people would like happen to find it as they were searching the blog. If you wrote something super catchy, they would feature it on their social media, but there was a really unclear statement about how you wouldn't get paid at the same rates when they featured it because you got a lot more exposure, which seems really unfair. You're not gonna pay me as much because you promoted. You're taking a cut of my profit because you put it on your social media and you didn't even ask me, first of all, anyways, I did get featured a few times. Those were the blogs that got the most views. You got paid quarterly based off your total cumulative views. I never really made as much per quarter'cause it would be. Three articles per quarter, so divided whatever I got paid by three. It was never as much as if I wrote for any other single blog. Even my lowest paying writing opportunity that I had. It was, it was lower than that. I never got great views, but it was a lot of Google search. My name was tied to all these articles. People would quote your articles. I saw it as a benefit even if I wasn't getting paid as much. But the catch was you had to write basically like once a month. I think they just said three times per quarter. If you stopped doing that cadence, you would no longer be eligible to get paid. I think that maybe once you got back on the cadence, you could start getting paid again, but for that time period you weren't doing it. You didn't receive any payment for those use. It was very confusing. I don't think it was clear. I feel like also, like they did have a counter on your articles, but there was no way for me to look at metrics of how a view was counted. Like did someone have to scroll through the whole article? How long did they have to be on the page? Like how did I really know how many views I was getting? And it didn't break it down like per month or per quarter. It just had like running tallies of total views and then views on each log. It was confusing, but when I started, it was really easy. I'd write a post, they'd approve it, no big deal. And then at some point, it really became a lot of work where they were constantly giving me feedback, oh, you need to change this before we'll post it. Or, oh, you can't write about this topic at all. Well, I wish somebody would've told me that beforehand because now I wasted time writing an article that can't even be published. Like a lot of things like that. Um, and if anything was like what they labeled as like too controversial or the editor that was reading it felt like personally bothered by what I wrote, they just wouldn't publish it and made it really difficult. And I was like, you know what? This isn't worth the time anymore, and I've already been kind of questioning at this point, some of the other articles they were posting. Like with really weird clickbait titles, like things I didn't wanna be associated with and that advertising always bothered me. They put it in the middle of your blog post. Like Psychology Today is one of those websites where you go to click a link and read an article, but there's so many popups and ads, it's too hard to navigate. So you just leave the website. Like it's very much like those types of websites. But they put the advertisements in the middle of my articles and sometimes it made it seem like I was promoting it in my article, or there were things on the post that I just found really problematic to be advertising at all on a mental health website. So anyways, I was finally like I for months, maybe even longer, maybe years. I was like, oh, I really wanna stop. I don't like this anymore. It's not worth my time. They're making it so difficult. But if I leave and stop writing, I'm no longer gonna get paid for this content to be up. So I was like hooked in'cause I wanted to be paid for my content. So when I finally decided to leave, I was like, alright, I want you to take all my articles off, take off the whole blog. I don't want my name on this website at all. I'm fed up. This is exploitive. I'm not to be associated with you anymore. And the editor kind of pushed back on that. He was like, oh no, that's a really unusual request. And it would create broken links that would be difficult for us. And I was just like, look, I know that you're gonna make money off my articles if I leave them up. I'm well aware of that and I don't want you making money off me anymore, and I don't like the way this website is headed, so I don't wanna be associated with you anymore. Take them down now and I mean, I had to be on them to get them fully removed, but eventually they were removed. In this moment I would never list with them again, like I ended my. Profile on the directory because of the way my experience with the blog went. So at that time I was writing an article about it for my personal blog, you know, to make sure my readers knew why I left and knew why all these broken links were existing. Um, and I was looking for a better directory that I could use as an alternative or suggest as an alternative.'cause I hate pointing out a problem and not having a solution. And that's when I found therapy done. This is a smaller directory, which is probably why I really hadn't heard of it before. It was started by. A guy named Jeff Gunther, also known as therapy, Jeff on TikTok and probably other forms of social media. But he started the website, gosh, I wanna say it was like 2018 or something. I could be wrong on the date, but it had been open a while. This is 2025 when I'm looking for an alternative to Psychology today, but I found a couple of his blog posts on therapy then talking about why. He wanted to create something better than Psychology today and the problem with directories like Psychology Today. And then he also, on his website, talked about his own privilege as a white male and wanting to recognize that and encourage people to point out if he. Had done or said something without recognizing his privilege. I really respected that. And then the website was set up as a directory that was very inclusive, fair, focused on mental health and justice. They even had like a free version therapist could use where they didn't pay for it. I think you didn't show up in as many searches or something. Um, or you could do the paid model, the premium, which was I think$30. So I was like, oh, awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna do this instead. I didn't really need an alternative directory. My practice has been pretty full for years. I get a lot of word of mouth referrals, and I also list on the Gottman Institute's directory for you can list if you're certified or what level you are. But I was like, oh, I'm gonna support the therapy, Dan, I'm gonna do the premium. Just so little sites like this can push psychology today out of the Google results. So I made the profile great. Cool. And then I noticed they had a blog, but it was all Jeff's posts on the blog. So I was like, well, let me reach out and see if he'd be open to having other writers on the blog. And you know, I've written for Psychology Today for so long and all these other blogs, I couldn't find any specific email on the only email was like a something like info@therapyden.com or something like that. So I emailed that email and I, you know, asked about the blog if they were looking for other writers, and someone named Arlet responded. She was super open to my pitch, said, oh, actually we've just started allowing other writers to contribute to the blog. Great timing, right? So I think in my initial email I said, are you hiring for writers? And then in our back and forth over topics and stuff like that. I had to ask several times, like, how much do you pay? Are you paying? And I finally get a response. One of those, oh, we pay our writers in exposure, potential exposure as if I should be thrilled about this. And I know this is not the only field where getting paid an exposure is an ethical issue, but exposure doesn't pay your bills. That's not a payment. And on their website there was a blurb about, oh, you should pay for a premium listing. One of the benefits is we're able to pay our writers from this money. So of course I pointed that out. But anyways, it was just very problematic and I read it a couple times and was like, look, there's no way this guy, Jeff, that I'm seeing all this information on the website and I've seen his TikTok therapy, Jeff. I'm like, there's no way this guy is thinking like. Equality, justice and fair. Oh, but I'm not gonna pay writers. I'm just gonna let them like, have possible exposure. So I responded and I CC'd Jeff's email. I could only find a direct email for him on his private practice website, but it said like, media inquiries. And I planned to write an article about this. So I thought, well, it's a media inquiry. He responded immediately and was like, oh, I sold therapy done in 2023. I don't work there anymore. What this is like over two years after this, and I'm like, oh, I was not aware because everything on the website says from your point of view, even the welcome email. When I joined was signed Jeff and I included a screenshot to him and he was like, I didn't know they were using my name still. So I think I asked him like, why did you sell it? Some question like that. And he basically told me like. I don't, he didn't use these words, but because of the contract, he couldn't say, so there was no, there was like a non-disclosure agreement or something like that, and I was like, this is really weird. So I respond to Arlet like, Hey, what's going on? Who owns this? I'm really confused at this point. Obviously I'm not writing for exposure. I'd already said that, but like, I'm not even interested in writing for you because who are you? And I didn't get a response, so I canceled my membership and then responded to that email and was like, can I get a refund for this month? Because you lied saying that you were owned by Jeff and you're clearly not owned by Jeff. At this point. I got the refund immediately from Arlet, and then she hadn't responded to my other email, so I said, Hey, can you respond to this blog email too? And I'm still waiting today. Today is. October 24th. I still have not heard a response from her, though. She did tell me she was working on answering all my questions, but wanted to collaborate with her team, like check in with them before she answered. So I'm really hopeful to get an answer on who is Arlet, who owns therapy, then who are these people? I did a whole investigation. If you're interested, I'm gonna publish an article with a lot more details in it. But I did a lot of like searching, like who owns the domain name? I went through multiple states through LLC registries trying to figure out who owned therapy. Then currently, like any information about the sale. It was all just like behind registered agent companies. Like there was no clarity on who owns this website and to, as of today, they have taken down any language that makes it seem like Jeff is still affiliated. His blog posts are still up, but they no longer have his little bio of saying, Jeff's the owner of Therapy dim. So they're working on changing this. But the names I did find associated with this website were like investors. So I'm guessing, I don't know for sure. I'll update when I know, but I'm guessing a random person bought this website off. Jeff, why? I'm not sure. But bought this website as an investment opportunity. This is the bigger issue, and it's not just Psychology Today. And therapy done. It's a lot of other mental health tech companies, like Better Help and Headway. There's a ton, I need to make a list, but there's a ton of them. They're venture capitalist projects, which means they're not owned by mental health advocates, but they're invested in in order to make money. These are profit driven businesses. They're not mental health businesses, and the difference to me with that is if your priority is to help people first, or your priority is to make money first. I do not have a problem with people making money in the mental health industry. Obviously I make money in the mental health industry as a therapist, and I think therapists deserve fair wages, I have no problem if you want to make a profit and live comfortably and not live in poverty, working at an agency making almost minimum wage because that's how much you make. But I don't think if your main priority is to make lots of money or have this huge passive income or set up a therapist directory and sell it for a profit, that your main goal is to help people, I think that should be secondary and the main goal of helping people being first. So Jeff's original website, it felt like the main goal was helping people first. But these other companies or now included in these other companies are not founded by anybody in the mental health field. Typically, I think Better Help was founded by like an Israeli investor or two Israeli investors. There's been a lot of controversy about Better Help Google it. You'll find a lot of information. Maybe one day I'll do a whole episode on that, but. It's just shady stuff. And then there's a lot of these companies, these mental health tech companies is what I call them that have been partied to huge lawsuits where they've had to pay up a lot of money because they sold client information, because they're running themselves as a business. Like any regular website where you can take your. Subscribers or whatever and sell their information or use it in ways for advertising, I guess you can't do that with protected health information. That's very much not allowed. And even if it's in a capacity where you can do that, you have to disclose that to people when they're signing up for the website. So anyways, there's lots of problems. You don't know the ethics. Of the mental health world. You don't know the legalities if you're not in the mental health world in some capacity. And if you're not even willing to hire someone as a consultant or a lawyer that specializes in that, like again, like big red flags, you're not in this to help people. You're in this for money'cause you're treating it like you would any other business. But mental health as a business is a little bit different. So when I mentioned Psychology Today, I used to have this foreign fee. I'm not sure if they're still registered in the Cayman Islands, but originally they were, and this is a common thing people do to avoid taxes in the us and that to me is confusing because if you work in the mental health field, you have the option to be a, I could have registered my business to be a nonprofit. I did not, um, but I could have and not had to pay taxes. So if that's an opportunity and you don't wanna pay taxes, then you should be a nonprofit, not register your business in a way that you become exempt to US taxes. I find that unethical. If you're running a business to help people, like I feel like I do my main. My main reason for becoming a therapist was because I'm interested in helping people and advocating for mental health. So the fact that I can also earn a nice living wage off of that is a secondary bonus. It's not my primary motivation because if it was, I'd be seeing 40 plus clients a week being a terrible therapist because I wanted more money, but I keep my caseload very small. These tech companies are profit driven and not what I would consider to be. Mental health businesses, they put profit first, and that equals both client and the therapist last. So everybody suffers and they make money off the therapist at the client's expense because the client's looking for help. The therapist is the one that's paying to be on these directories or. Whatever tech company it is, they're paying something. They're getting a cut of their income taken from these companies if it's better help or headway. So I think you can see why I'm frustrated as a therapist, but also as a client. When I try to find a therapist, I'm in the same shoes as my clients are. I cannot find someone on all these listings. Psychology today now has these huge tech companies. That are really just companies that get you credentialed with insurance companies, but they operate like a giant group practice almost. So they get these really great rates with the insurance companies somehow. I don't know. But anyways they have profiles for all their therapist. And the contact does not go directly to the therapist. It goes to these big companies that just funnel it through any way to get you to sign up for a session so they can make money. They don't really care about matching you with the therapist. They're not letting the therapist manage these pages to make sure that they're accurate. And I think I worry a lot when people say, I'm contacting therapists on Psychology Today and nobody's writing me back. Are there really. That many of us that are not responding to emails, or are these emails not actually going to anyone, but making it seem like they are. So there's just so many dynamics here that make it really hard for you to find a therapist. The profiles. Have to be optimized for SEO for people to see you when you live in a large area. If you search in a really rural area, you might find a couple therapists listed so they don't have to worry about optimizing their profile as much. When you live in a really big city, there's a ton of therapists. I mean, some places are really saturated. You might have over 10 pages of listings on psychology today come up. So the problem when that happens, or if you're searching for telehealth and you're searching by state, there's enormous amounts of therapists on Psychology today. So when you're searching and there's a lot, the therapist has to optimize their profile in a way that they're gonna show up on the first, second or third page in order to get clients.'cause I hear a lot of therapists that live in bigger cities say like, I never get clients from Psychology today. So if the therapist has to optimize their profile in a way that it makes people find them, they're gonna do things like list a ton of specialties on there, because I don't wanna miss out on a client who has depression and I'm qualified to treat if I only list three specialties on there. So they'll add a lot of specialties. They'll add a lot of population. So basically when you're filtering, they'll show up in any search that you have. Some therapists I know will even say that they take insurance that they don't take, so they show up in the listings hoping a client will contact them and then they can convince them to do private pay. I've never done these things, but a lot of therapists are pushed into doing things like that in order to show up on the listings and get clients to find them. It's really hard to be found. If you don't optimize your profile, so that hurts the client because you're not seeing an accurate profile of this person, and they don't get to put what they genuinely want on the page because they're not gonna show up in the listings if they're not relevant. So that's a problem. The call to change, I think there are some solutions here. I do like the Gottman directory, so if you're looking for a couples therapist who's Gottman certified, that's a great directory. I think also, if you're looking for anyone with like a niche certification like E-F-T-E-M-D-R, a lot of these different C-B-T-D-B-T, if you go on their listservs. On their web pages, they typically do have directories that therapists who are certified or trained can list on, and you have to be at a certain level of training to be able to do that. So those are good ways if you're looking for something really niche. But if it's your first experience in therapy and you're like, I don't know what to do, I'm just gonna Google therapy in my town, therapy in my state, it is so hard to sift through all of that. So I always suggest if you don't have anyone to ask around to'cause word of mouth referrals are great. If you have any friends, anyone that works in the healthcare field that may work with mental health therapists, anything like that, like ask people by word of mouth first. But if you don't have that when you're Googling, look for actual therapist websites that pop up. It's hard to get our websites. In the top page is on Google, so you might have to keep clicking through, but be as specific as possible if you're looking for something like a therapist that helps with this issue, and then maybe that will get their page to show up. If you do use the directories, I do think it's better if you click, usually on the sidebar, there's a place where you can click to go to the therapist's actual website. Go to the therapist's website and then see, first of all, is it a giant group practice with a hundred therapists? Is that something you're looking for? Is it a solo private practice? Read about their bio on their website. Check out every page on their website. That's gonna give you a better view into the therapist. So if you have to use a directories, those are my tips. But there's an ever changing evolution going on in therapy since the pandemic. For psychologists they have this thing called pact where they're able to practice in multiple states and what we have the called the counseling Compact, that's just rolling out now for LPC type therapist, master's level therapist, but not social workers. It's allowing us to work across state lines, which is something we weren't able to do pre pandemic. Like many other healthcare providers, like many doctors and nurses can work across state lines with their licenses. But when we started having all of this online healthcare, the mental health field was really slow. To get some sort of universal licensure so everyone was on the same page. When I'm licensed in four states, I have to go to each state and individually apply and individually manage my continuing education and individually manage my applications. It's a lot of work. I don't think I could add a fifth one because it's a lot of work to stay up to date with that and not miss any deadlines. But now we have the counseling compact, which I would be eligible for, where participating states that pass legislator in their states is a lot of hurdles to get here. But once they're there, if your home state, the state that you reside in participates, you can sign up for all or as many as you'd like of the other participating state. So I think the hope is eventually that all 50 would get on board with this. But some of them have, for some reason, passed legislator that they don't wanna participate. But anyways, it all opened the door for many states. I think we have over 30 something that are. In the compact currently, and only two states are live as of today, but eventually all of those that have passed the legislator will be set up. So anyways, that will open the door to someone like me. Who lives in West Virginia, but only does telehealth to be able to see people all across the country in a much easier way and legally with all of the states saying like, okay, we're on the same page about requirements to be licensed, requirements for renewal and how clients will report if they have any issues. So now that we have PAC and the counseling compact directories, like Psychology Today only let you target one state. And three zip codes. So you could potentially reach up to four states, but only in three of those states. Only in one zip code. So you have to pay for multiple profiles to list in more than one state. So if you only do telehealth, you would have to constantly change the zip codes and hope that somebody's gonna find you as you're changing the zip codes or constantly change the states or pay for X number of profiles. I can't recall how many states participate in pac, but say we get 40 states participating in one of these programs, we're not gonna be paying for 40 directories. It's just complicating things more. So there has to be something, some way to support that. What I did like about therapy then was they weren't capping the amount of places that you could list, and I think a lot of directories have kind of figured out how to make it easier to find Telehealth practitioners based by state. But again, it just makes it harder and harder to be found when you don't know any specific certification or training that you want your therapist to have. So for people that are having their first experience in therapy or just looking for more of a general practitioner, it, it just, there's so many people's overwhelming, you're just gonna pick the first people you see. So for my listeners, I want the takeaway to be a couple practical tips for how you can ethically fine therapists and support transparency in the industry. If you wanna use these directories that I've named that are problematic, I totally understand. I tell this to my therapist colleagues, if you still wanna list on them. I understand because when I started in business, it was the only way I got clients, so I'm not gonna encourage anyone. To take away the ability for clients to find therapists, or therapists to find clients without there being an alternative. So if you don't have an alternative directory like I do, like the Gottman Institute, or you've been around long enough, you get consistent word of mouth referrals or people can actually find your website on a Google search. When you're using the directory, look into it. Try to figure out. What their mission statement is, what the ethics are of their business, and if that's okay with you, like I said earlier, click on the therapist website. Don't ever contact the therapist through these directories. Contact them through the contact information on their website if they have one. Some therapists do self-scheduling on their websites where you can look at their calendar and schedule a session online. Or call them directly and speak to them. Or most cases leave a voicemail and they'll call you back'cause we're in session most of the day. And then there are some services out there that. I kind of do like a matchmaking that's a little more individualized than just filtering on a directory. But you have to do your research. Again, some of those are using AI to just screen through the directories and then give you a list pretending that these were individually picked for you, but they're just used the same way that any other directory is. But, um, I actually did I do this sometimes now? I never used to do this. In depth as I did, but now I started calling therapists for clients. Like say I'm working with a couple and they want an individual referral, I will call the therapist. I set up a call with them and I screen them for the client because I can't tell based off all these. Directories if you're gonna be a good fit for my client. But it's a lot of work and it's time taken from those therapists and time taken from me doing this work. So we can't always guarantee that that's gonna be an option. But there are services out there. I know there are therapists that. Are trying to start businesses where they're solely, what they're doing is finding individualized referrals for you, like a matchmaking service for therapists and clients. Um, that's not AI generated. So if you can find something like that, those are good options too. And then at the end of the day, however you find these therapists, find some questions you wanna ask to screen them. Because the most important part, no matter what modality and all the research that we've done, no matter the modality or anything, the most important part that helps clients make change is their relationship with the therapist. So you wanna make sure you find a good match. You don't have to stick with the first person you ever talk to. Now if you vibe with them and it works out, that's great, go for it. You're lucky. But sometimes you have to see a therapist, a few sessions and think, you know, this really isn't the best fit for me. Let me find someone else. Or they say, actually, I think you might benefit from this type of therapy. I don't do that, but here's someone who can. So when you are seeing a new therapist, some do free consultations, some don't. I use my intake session as a consultation. I have a lot of questions to ask you to see if I'm a good fit. I can't do that in a free 15 minute phone call. And I worry about the ethics of not having consent form signed before giving anybody any treatment information. So I just do a full on intake for my screening. But some therapists do. Free 15 minute phone calls. Those are usually just really brief. They're gonna tell you a little bit about themselves and answer any questions. So if you're looking for, Hey, have you had experience with this really specific diagnosis I have they can either say yes or no and tell you what they do, and then that's when you decide to schedule a session. So figure out what questions you wanna ask when you're screening a therapist. And quick questions for the 15 minute. Consults and then like more in depth for if you get the full session with a therapist. There's lots of blog posts out there if you search. How should I screen a therapist what questions to ask a new therapist? But yeah, so I would love to have a solution. I don't have a full on solution. I have some workarounds, I have some things to make it work, but the problem is I'm not a tech company. I'm learning technology as it's evolving and not at the rate that these tech companies are. So it's hard to get the SEO ratings on personal websites for therapy to show up on these pages like the directories, like Psychology Today and Therapy didn't do. So the best we can do is learn how to sift through these directories right now and contact therapists with their direct contact information if there is no direct contact information on these profiles. I take that as a red flag that this is being funneled to a company and not directly to that therapist. If you don't see any way to contact them on that profile, other than that message on the website, try just Googling their name and seeing if you find any other place with their contact info. Yeah, just do a little research, and I think this is like a little FYI for people, clients new to mental health and finding a therapist, I mean. I can't imagine the overwhelm if you don't know anything about this industry and you're searching for a therapist. So hopefully my tips were helpful. Feel free to ask any questions, drop me a message. I'd love to help in any way that I can. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on both sides of the couch. If something you heard today resonated, share this episode with someone who might need it. And if you'd like to support the show or find more of my work, check the links in the show notes. Until next time, take care of yourself on both sides of the couch.